#devops - CrowdChat

Clouderati on DevOps

Thought leader conversation on DevOps and Cloud. People and tools - good patterns v. anti-patterns

#devops @furrier @jfryman @epowell101 @cote @carminerimi @phool_stormer

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#devopsClouderati on DevOpsWho will beat AWS in enterprise cloud? Top thought leaders discuss the news around cloud #devops

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Sarbjeet Johal10

Every enterprise always did development and operations the DeOps goal is being these two entities together. So everyone is doing DevOps but degree varies. As more and more developers and operators are training on automation your DevOps rating will increase

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great point about bringing the two worlds together

ThirdWave Insights

@furrier Your point about "orchestration is a fantasy until..." leads into a deeper thought I have been struggling with: It the distinction between provisioning, automation, orchestration actually creating barriers. For example, why not automate orchestr.

@3rdwaveinsights How w/d you automate orchestration? We are starting to see "automation as a service" in production in big shops. Horrible acronym, but powerful concept I think. Your thoughts?

OK lets get the people conversation going. What does a DevOps person look like? Skills etc

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coders who can engineer not just administrate. Node and integrated stacks; zero provisioning issues (manual) speed is key to success

Patrick Hoolboom

...or the other way. Ops Eng who can code. It naturally lends itself to turning out DevOps oriented tool sets.

whether dev, QA, ops, manager, product mgr, etc.: people who are curious and want to explore new things. Few will ever have the "can do everything" utopia, but people can at least learn & block less to protect their comfy cube of ignorance.

@phool_stormer This is what i'm seeing as well; it's not about just Dev or Ops but engineering talent

SW Developers with an interest in Operations - everything from Application Ops to Deployment to Infrastructure

in the enterprise-y space, equally vital to "engineers" are making sure management and "business owners" are aligned. If you build a great appdev pipeline, and the money people don't care, it's likely a waste of your effort.

we can also look at how Agile Development played out in the 2000s for similar patterns and tips/tricks.

@cote True. I think cost savings, repeatability, and delivering business more quickly are great drivers for business owners.

@cote True. I think cost savings, repeatability, and delivering business more quickly are great drivers for business owners.

@cote True. I think cost savings, repeatability, and delivering business more quickly are great drivers for business owners.

@cote I think the latter point is key. The end goal is business enablement, not automation mecca. How do you find companies tackle the balance between the pipeline development and pipeline usage wrt automation?

Patrick Hoolboom

@cote Yes! It can be quite an uphill battle getting adoption for DevOps tactics if management is not on board.

I'd argue that the Agile world crested at penetrating the business side of things, and that #DevOps has to be sure to "penetrate"/infect/turn the business to be long-term successful

There's a big difference between coding (an application) and coding (a script for automation or simple integration). That distinction needs to be made. We aren't talking full on app dev, we're talking scripting and targeted code.

There's a big difference between coding (an application) and coding (a script for automation or simple integration). That distinction needs to be made. We aren't talking full on app dev, we're talking scripting and targeted code.

ThirdWave Insights

@cote Agree with your penetration point.

@lmacvittie +1. Can scripting be a slippery slope though? We've seen orgs go through to refactor scripts in a way that basically turns them all together into a control plane. Is that just us? (self selection bias). Anyone else see it?

@epowell101 Absolutely can be a slippery slope. Discipline is necessary as is starting with design. It's not just the coding pieces of agile we need to adopt in ops.. it's the system-level approach up front we also need

@epowell101 Absolutely can be a slippery slope. Discipline is necessary as is starting with design. It's not just the coding pieces of agile we need to adopt in ops.. it's the system-level approach up front we also need

@epowell101 Absolutely can be a slippery slope. Discipline is necessary as is starting with design. It's not just the coding pieces of agile we need to adopt in ops.. it's the system-level approach up front we also need

ThirdWave Insights

@epowell101 Automating/scripting can be a slippery slope when the maintenance cost associated with lots of changes cause the ROIs to go negative.

@3rdwaveinsights Lots of changes to the automation itself? Do you get into the DevOps people, process, tools needed to author the automation for the DevOps people, process, tools?

Crowd Captain16

Steve Jobs said all Network Engineers need to learn how to code? thoughts on this http://www.jedelman....

Steve Jobs Thinks All Network Engineers Should Learn to Code
With some downtime this weekend, I was able to watch a few documentaries on NetFlix. There were a few great ones on Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, Mark Cuban, and Steve Jobs. Many of them came...

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I think at a core level, operators who interface with computers should understand their own domain language, and a common 'glue' language. The first is to automate their own domain, and the latter is to enable usage of their domain by others.

Devops == 100% of infrastructure as code.

Everyone needs to learn how to code! From my CMO needs to my 14 y.o. niece, so you bet N/W engs. need to code!

There's a difference between coding (to develop an application) and coding (to script for automation). That distinction needs to be made, because we aren't talking about needing to be app developers, we're talking about needing basic coding / scripting.

@AndiMann +1 Fundamental. It is getting easier to code. See iPhone apps. See higher level languages. Not saying easier to code *well*.... In any case this is leading to more and more coders, right?

@AndiMann I agree with this as well. I think in the future we'll see a different type of coder. Today, we run into challenges with domain language between experts and developers. Future devs will *be* domain experts with the ability to code.

@epowell101 Higher level languages != easier code. IN many cases, they're more difficult because they're less rigidly defined. See Ruby as a good example.

@lmacvittie Good point. Still, growth in # of devs including those wearing an ops badge seems like a driver of change?

Are enterprises embracing DevOps or are they just calling it something else?

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depends on what you define as an Enterprise. if their "product" is digital, this is a growing segment for DevOps adoption.

Both! A bunch I know are doing straight up DevOps. But many are targeting SDLC flow constraints in just 1 or 2 areas, not calling it 'DevOps'

depends on what you define as an Enterprise. if their "product" is digital, this is a growing segment for DevOps adoption.

depends on what you define as an Enterprise. if their "product" is digital, this is a growing segment for DevOps adoption.

Whether that is DevOps? Does it matter? Ultimately dogma is not important, results are. Reminds me of Tom Bittman on cloud yrs ago - sometimes 80% is enough.

@AndiMann Nice. Key results = speed to respond to market (internal or external demand)? Or another better more crisp KPI?

many "enterprises" @451Research talks with are in the midst of figuring out how to apply "cloud" to making their IT, and business run better, and end-up looking to #DevOps as an appdev layer on-top of that.

I don't think we can stereotype an org as 'enterprise' anymore. Look at market leaders and see what they are calling it.

ThirdWave Insights

@epowell101 Rather than speed, agility. Doing something that used to be market relevant faster is quite different than jumping into something new fast

@3rdwaveinsights well, I think in this case speed is the enabler of agility. If the appdev cycle was 6 months, less agility would likely be achieved. The ability to quickly iterate and respond to feedback (good & bad) is the benefit of speed here.

@AndiMann agree that dogma clouds the issue (pun intended). It's about engineering the solutions having adaptive infra

@epowell101 Time to market for business ideas seems to be top driver & outcome. Cost, quality, cust. sat., revenue, penetration all critical, but speed tops the list I think.

@cote Cloud is a great enabler, but less of an answer to business problems, more a starting point. DevOps, Mobile, Social, Analytics, etc. are real solutions. Cloud is the platform for them.

@jakerobinson I disagree. Enterprise is not (should notbe) just a label; it indicates fundamentally different challenges - in scale, regulation, market, and more. imo

ThirdWave Insights

@cote Agree speed is an enabler... Getting feedback could also be viewed as an enabler... these all contribute to make the business more agile.

@AndiMann but saying 'what do enterprises call it' eludes that all enterprises move at the same speed and have the same culture. Just because an org is of a certain size does not mean they get there a certain way.

@AndiMann but saying 'what do enterprises call it' eludes that all enterprises move at the same speed and have the same culture. Just because an org is of a certain size does not mean they get there a certain way.

@AndiMann but saying 'what do enterprises call it' eludes that all enterprises move at the same speed and have the same culture. Just because an org is of a certain size does not mean they get there a certain way.

@AndiMann Excellent point, Andi. Enterprises have different challenges and thus different reasons for adopting DevOps, but they're just as valid - whatever they might call it.